3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

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3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 28th 2014, 10:45 am

Doing a bit of prep for the Gem City Cup in July and trying to lock in my 3-list setup.

My Damiano list has been doing great, so aside from 2-points of flex, it has been the same for most of this year. I've decided to go back to Ossrum (away from Gorten) after mixed results over the last 6-weeks or so with Gorten. For my third list, I've decided to go with Bart - partially due to simply having the characters available to do so. Shae/MacBain would be my other options here, but the Battened/Spiny/Hot Shot/Artillerist Galleon is simply too good to pass up. I'll be focusing on brushing up with the Bart and Ossrum lists heading into the Gem City Cup at the end of July.


Here are this lists I'm planning to work on:

Damiano [Highborn]
-Nomad
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Pistoleers
-Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer
-Vanguard
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Max.)
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (Max.)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Max.)
Tactical Arcanist Corps
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
Anastasia di Bray
Ragman

Comments - Same list I've been running for a while. I'm comfortable dropping this into most match-ups.

Anastasia is there primarily for the +1 to my starting roll. Having two 3-COST upkeeps to get out makes going first a huge plus for this list, as if I go first I can get both upkeeps out and starting turn 2, upkeep my spells and Deadeye two units. Going second forces me to either forgo Deadeye all together or only get one of my upkeeps out and only one Deadeye.


Ossrum [Highborn]
-Ghordson Earthbreaker
Press Gangers (Max.)
Press Gangers (Max.)
Alexia Ciannor & The Risen
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Max.)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord
Thor Steinhammer

Comments - Cheap Press Gangers to jam and fuel Alexia, buying my Earthbreaker time to go to work at-range and deliver my Forge Guard. This is my primary Protectorate drop, as the EB/Thor/A&H do terrible things to Protectorate 'jacks (KD, then stuck in rough terrain). I'll likely also go with this list if I see my opponent will have a hard time protecting their 'caster(s) from the Sniped EB.


Bart [Four Star]
-Galleon
-Rocinante
-Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker
Kayazy Assassins (Max.)
-Kayazy Assassin Underboss
Master Gunner Dougal MacNaile
Harlan Versh/Kell Bailoch
Wrong Eye & Snapjaw
-Bull Snapper

Comments - Fairly standard build, but I like the addition of Rocinante in the list, as it give me an additional accurate/long range/high POW gun, plus Guard Dog and Defensive Strike to help protect Bart (and goes to ARM 21 w/Batten). For now I'm going without a Shield Guard, as I don't want to sink any more points into the Galleon entourage (could drop Rocinante for a Nomad/Bokur). The Kayazy are there to get some additional mileage from Bart's Feat, as if my opponent can ignore KD and go after them in melee they will be effectively DEF 19 and if they stay back to shoot from outside Bart's Feat, Stealth will often come into play.

I'll look to this list if I see an opponent who can't deal effectively with the Battened/Spiny Galleon and/or doesn't have a way to mitigate KD on Bart's Feat.



Any thoughts/suggestions?
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by DanS on May 28th 2014, 12:04 pm

Of the three, I think that the Ossrum list may be the best. The other two are lacking anything that dives into an opponents zone to keep them from scoring.

Damiano has a couple of units that are good at doing that on their own, but will quickly outpace your caster's ability to contribute...and both will get wrecked by Purification/an Eyriss bolt. The only suggestion that I have would be to look at Gorten instead of Damiono...sure you loose Thor, but with the feat, you do not need to boost to hit anyway and you can attrition very well.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 28th 2014, 1:18 pm

DanS wrote:Of the three, I think that the Ossrum list may be the best.  The other two are lacking anything that dives into an opponents zone to keep them from scoring.

Damiano has a couple of units that are good at doing that on their own, but will quickly outpace your caster's ability to contribute...and both will get wrecked by Purification/an Eyriss bolt.  The only suggestion that I have would be to look at Gorten instead of Damiono...sure you loose Thor, but with the feat, you do not need to boost to hit anyway and you can attrition very well.

You're right that the Damiano list sucks against Purification (losing one upkeep via Eiryss isn't the worst thing in the world).  It's interesting you don't think the Damiano list handles scenario well though, because I'm 4-0 with that last in tournament play, winning each game 5-0 on scenario.

Deadeyed Gun Mages/Nyss typically clear off most of my opponent's front line and my Boomhowlers (Deathmarch) usually move up aggressively, with the Vanguard (Sure Foot) tucked into the middle of the unit, providing +2 DEF/no-KD for most of the unit.  Unless they have way to mitigate Tough and Sure Foot, most of my opponents have struggled to remove them at DEF 14/ARM 16 (ARM 19 on Feat turn) with 4+ Tough, particularly as they are proccing Vengeance (which because of Sure Foot I actually get use from and at MAT 8 w/Deathmarch) which lets me move deeper into zones.  The Vanguard itself at DEF 15/ARM 19 (DEF 17 vs charges and ARM 22 on Feat turn) is amazing for holding a zone and the Nomad also does well for this purpose at ARM 22 under Feat and usually with a mass of infantry in front of it.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by DanS on May 28th 2014, 6:10 pm

I am mainly worried about facing an opponent who can actively disrupt Damiano's ability to support the army. If he has to spend two or three focus for upkeeps, and another two or three to recast, then he is very vulnerable.

Loosing one upkeep is a pretty big deal if your opponent chooses the correct one. Damiano will have a tough time recasting over and over.

Out of curiosity, do you know when the new Jrs are tourney legal?
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 28th 2014, 7:57 pm

DanS wrote:Out of curiosity, do you know when the new Jrs are tourney legal?

They've been tournament legal since they starting shipping them.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by milothewise on May 30th 2014, 9:30 am

I had a different read on the Damiano list than Dan. It looks like he's mostly a Deadeye bot, here, which is great, because it's his arguably his best spell. Nyss and Gun Mages love it, and Boomhowlers can probably benefit in a pinch. Looks like it would be weak against lists with lots of accurate shooting or lots of AOEs, but other than that? Yeesh. Cryx doesn't EVER want to see this across the table.

Looks like a really solid setup to me. Can you say more about when you'd drop each list? For instance - what's the plan against eLich, eHaley, Harbinger, eMorvahnna, eVayl?
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by DanS on May 30th 2014, 11:02 am

What about if Cryx drops eGorshade...a caster who seems to be in everyone's lineups and would dismantle the Damiano list IMO.

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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 30th 2014, 11:06 am

milothewise wrote:I had a different read on the Damiano list than Dan. It looks like he's mostly a Deadeye bot, here, which is great, because it's his arguably his best spell. Nyss and Gun Mages love it, and Boomhowlers can probably benefit in a pinch. Looks like it would be weak against lists with lots of accurate shooting or lots of AOEs, but other than that? Yeesh. Cryx doesn't EVER want to see this across the table.

Yep, that is how the list generally works. Upkeep Death March and Sure Foot, cast Deadeye twice, sit behind TAC clouds and profit. Works well against heavier ARM lists as well with Feat, Gorman, Ragman, etc.

milothewise wrote:Looks like a really solid setup to me. Can you say more about when you'd drop each list? For instance - what's the plan against eLich, eHaley, Harbinger, eMorvahnna, eVayl?

Proviso - In tournament play with Mercenaries, I've often found my opponents reaching for their off-lists, particularly in early rounds (discounting Mercenaries a bit), so I feel there is a decent chance to avoid some of these match-ups.

I'm also still debating the Bart list quite a bit, so I'm not sure it will still be there come the tournament in July. Dougal and/or Hawk may end up in my Ossrum list.

vs. Lich2 - I would probably have Damiano in this match-up, since I really like him against Cryx and other infantry-heavy lists. The big problem I see with this match-up is Lich keeping his Bile Thralls behind clouds and immune to all of my direct-target shooting and/or forcing me really take my Nyss/Gun Mages out of position to try to get at them. If he doesn't have Bile Thralls (I don't think I've ever seen such a thing though, lol), I like the match-up quite a bit, as the list generally chews through Cryx infantry extremely well. The TAC clouds help protect against his Feat, so for me, the match-up really comes down to handling/surviving the Bile Thralls and wearing down his list with Deadeyed shooting.

vs. Haley2 - Really depends on the build, as there has a been a bit more variety in Haley2 builds lately. I would be between Ossrum and Damiano though, as I just don't think the Bart list would have any chance on scenario.

vs. Harbinger - Ossrum. The Feat holds up my infantry for a turn, but with 20 AD models, I can still maintain decent board position and the list can piece trade extremely well with Protectorate 'heavies due to being stuck in 4" rough terrain templates and knocked down if they didn't bring the Book (unlikely) or are outside to no-KD bubble.

vs. Morvahna2 - Ossrum. Morvahna2 doesn't like being hounded by a Sniped/Tuned Up Earthbreaker (if I drop the Bart list, Dougal would go with Ossrum and make it even more of a problem for her). The 20 Press Gangers (particularly if I add Hawk back into the list) also offer a very credible RFP option against her infantry via Shanghai. Keeping Ossrum safe from assassination (depends a lot on the Morv2 build) is a big issue here.

vs. Vayl2 - Bart or Ossrum. The Artillerist/Hot Shot Galleon plus Rocinante can do solid work against Legion heavies at-range and with Spiny Growth, Purification still leaves the Galleon at ARM 22. Ossrum would be okay as well, though not being able to KD the Angelius is problematic.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 30th 2014, 11:26 am

DanS wrote:What about if Cryx drops eGorshade...a caster who seems to be in everyone's lineups and would dismantle the Damiano list IMO.  


I've yet to see much Goreshade2 when I run into Cryx, but I can definitely see where you're coming from Dan.

Particularly if it's the Theme Force with 2x Bane Thrall UA's, it would be extremely difficult to out-attrition that list with so many living warrior models to fuel Goreshade's Elite Cadre.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by DanS on May 30th 2014, 11:39 am

I a 3-list environment, I would expect to see him 85% of the time.

Word of warning, it is not the Bane Thralls that you have to worry about.  He will use his feat to bury scrapthralls into you Nyss and Gun mages, and then detonate them via pistol wraiths.  Make sure you are spread out.

He is their Merc drop btw.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 30th 2014, 11:50 am

DanS wrote:I a 3-list environment, I would expect to see him 85% of the time.

That's a very precise figure, lol.

DanS wrote:Word of warning, it is not the Bane Thralls that you have to worry about.  He will use his feat to bury scrapthralls into you Nyss and Gun mages, and then detonate them via pistol wraiths.  Make sure you are spread out.

He is their Merc drop btw.

Definitely something I'll have to keep in mind.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on May 30th 2014, 11:59 am

@Dan

What would you suggest with Mercenaries against Cryx/Goreshade2? Aside from Damiano, Durgen is the only other Merc 'caster I would consider "strong" against a reasonable number of Cryx builds.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by DanS on May 30th 2014, 11:59 am

I will throw my new three lists...I think I am set on them now.

Karchev the Terrible (*5pts)
* Behemoth (13pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard (2pts)
* 3 Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeers (3pts)
Kovnik Andrei Malakov (3pts)
* Beast-09 (11pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
Ogrun Bokur (3pts)


Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed (*4pts)
* Demolisher (9pts)
* Devastator (9pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Kayazy Eliminators (Leader and Grunt) (3pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (without dismount) (4pts)
Ogrun Bokur (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)


Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey (*5pts)
* Drago (7pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Greylord Outriders (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Greylord Outriders (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Iron Fang Uhlans (Leader and 2 Grunts) (7pts)
Iron Fang Uhlans (Leader and 2 Grunts) (7pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (with dismount) (5pts)
Man-o-war Drakhun (with dismount) (5pts)
Fenris (5pts)
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by milothewise on May 30th 2014, 12:58 pm

I agree with Dan that eGoreshade is the Merc drop if they have it. I don't agree that Damiano is a a dog there. The Kraken and Scrap AOEs are a problem, Phantom Hunter unicorn shots will threaten Damiano all game, and tough, replenishing Bane Thralls are always a grind, but there are issues for the Goreshade player, too:
1. Gun Mages give you a lot of breathing room against the Thralls
2. You have a high volume of attacks that out-threat his Banes (hell, 11" on walking Boomies shooting with Deadeye)
3. Tough and the High DEF on the Nyss are going to pose some problems for MAT 6 Banes

I would not put money down either way. Tough match for both sides.

The other thing to consider is that if the Cryx player DOESN'T have eGoreshade in their lineup, or they choose not to use him (needing him later or simply underestimating Mercs), they are going to have a rough time of it. That is a brutal list against most traditional Cryx builds.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on June 5th 2014, 10:37 pm

After a couple of test games with Gorten, I've decided transfer the entire Ossrum list (plus First Mate Hawk due to two extra WJ Points) back to Gorten. Solid Ground just synergizes too well with the list, plus his Feat is just so much stronger than Ossrum's. First Mate Hawk also really cranks up the Press Ganger package.

Snipe on a Tuned Up Earthbreaker is a hell of a drug though.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by milothewise on June 6th 2014, 11:24 am

Let us know how that goes. I have been doing the exact same waffling, but I think I'm going to commit to Ossrum. No KD is awesome for the list (I run Boomies instead, but yeah), and Gorten's feat is ridiculous rather than "meh", but the Earthbreaker is SO MUCH more of a threat with Ossrum.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on June 6th 2014, 11:35 am

milothewise wrote:Let us know how that goes. I have been doing the exact same waffling, but I think I'm going to commit to Ossrum. No KD is awesome for the list (I run Boomies instead, but yeah), and Gorten's feat is ridiculous rather than "meh", but the Earthbreaker is SO MUCH  more of a threat with Ossrum.

I'm 2-0 with Gorten running the Ossrum list (vs Sev1 and Xerxis).  Hawk really shores up the list both in terms of command checks and melee output for the Press Gangers.  Having 30+ Tough no-KD/immune to blast damage infantry is also a huge plus for the list, particularly the blast immune part when facing Protectorate/otherwise (though the PGs aren't always in the bubble).  

I agree about the enhanced Earthbreaker threat with Ossrum though.  Once I get past the EB and support, I have a hard time settling on a list with him I really like/is actually suited to him though.

I'm feeling a bit more comfortable with the Bart list, though I'm strongly considering dropping Harlan Versh for Lord Rockbottom, just to keep my damn Kayazy from failing their command checks.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by milothewise on June 6th 2014, 1:28 pm

Celebros wrote:I agree about the enhanced Earthbreaker threat with Ossrum though.  Once I get past the EB and support, I have a hard time settling on a list with him I really like/is actually suited to him though.

That's because he's awful. Seriously - I don't think I will ever be able to kick my Sniped Earthbreaker habit, but Ossrum just doesn't do anything else. If it wasn't for the colossal, I wouldn't even bother.

When are you not losing on scenario with Bart? I haven't even seen the Hot Shotted Galleon on the table yet, so I'm genuinely curious.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on June 6th 2014, 1:49 pm

milothewise wrote:That's because he's awful. Seriously - I don't think I will ever be able to kick my Sniped Earthbreaker habit, but Ossrum just doesn't do anything else. If it wasn't for the colossal, I wouldn't even bother.

He has some game, I just prefer more infantry support.  Fire for Effect on Herne & Jonne is really strong, as is a Sniped Gorman di Wulfe (16" Black Oil threat, 18" w/Double Powder Ration).  Martial Discipline is occasionally awesome as well. I've yet to effectively make use of Unstoppable Force, but I'd like to explore that spell a bit more in the future (perhaps with a couple of gun bunnies).

milothewise wrote:When are you not losing on scenario with Bart? I haven't even seen the Hot Shotted Galleon on the table yet, so I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not losing on scenario as long as I get my Galleon toeing into a zone/contesting a flag.  Rocinante (ARM 21 w/Batten Down the Hatches) and Snapjaw also give me a couple more durable options for holding zones.  Kayazy are also still a pain in the ass for a lot of opponents to deal with (particularly on Feat turn).  It definitely struggles in scenarios like Incursion though.
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Re: 3-List Mercenaries - Gem City Prep

Post by Celebros on June 10th 2014, 11:30 am

In my Bart list, Rocinante has been downgraded to a Nomad in order to squeeze in a unit of Kayazy Eliminators. I like having a more reliable solution to specific problem models (Gorman/Eiryss/anti-KD models like Iron Fang Kovnik/etc). The Nomad also has +1 ARM over Rocinante, so having an ARM 24 Galleon and an ARM 22 Nomad turn-to-turn isn't too shabby.
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