Match-up: Infantry Swarms

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Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by pg.Affliction on March 26th 2014, 8:06 am

So I am looking at two different lists for use against infantry swarm style armies. What I am looking for is some feedback on not only how well you think they will clear said infantry out, but also dealing with the 'end game' once I get there. One of these lists will be paired with my Rasheth T4: Chain Gang list. It can deal with ARM and mild DEF and is my drop against most Hordes armies.

This first list here is one I played about 18 or so times and it works well, but takes a lot of time and a little luck to get the ball rolling.

Supreme Archdomina Makeda (*5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Cataphract Incindiarii (Leader and 5 Grunts) (9pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Praetorian Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Praetorian Swordsmen Officer & Standard (2pts)
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Gatorman Witch Doctor (3pts)
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor (2pts)


Pros: very fast, can deal with high DEF, multiple melee assassination angles, soul denial, fearless army, and a warlock that can finish the job if need be, spell denial.
Cons: fragile, has issues with stealth (needs good deviations), turns take a long time even with experience, no ARM cracking.

Key Parts of the List: Spells - Road to War (+2 movement in control area for whole army), Engine of Destruction (+4 SPD, STR, MAT for Warlock); FEAT - No Free Strikes, Boosted Melee Attack Rolls, No KD; Other - Zombify (tough and undead), Guidance (Eyeless Sight and Magic Weapons to any one model a turn), Swordsman Mini-Feat (auto point of damage), and Orin.

While some may think Molik is a key piece to Skorne, his purpose in this list is to always threaten and make opponents react to him as he sits midfield and watches.

______________________________________________________________________

The list below is one I believe offers more solid answers to specific questions like stealth, solo sniping, or straight out ranged/magical caster kills but overall may not be a better army in the long game. I also only have about 6 games in with this list so not as familiar with it as the list above. With Black Spot I am not sure how much quicker this list will be from round to round than the list above.

Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Titan Sentry (Bonded) (9pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
* Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)


Pros: Deals with stealth well, 20" ranged attack threat from Reivers, spell assassination during feat turn, multiple killings from Black Spot, Snipe, can threaten any single piece from just about anywhere in just about any situation, lots of titan meat to chew through.
Cons: attrition battles are not good for this list, the end game if spell assassination fails, poor board control, dealing with high DEF, getting jammed.

Key Points to the List: Spells - Black Spot, Ashes to Ashes; Warlock - Vampiric Harvest (free beast healing), Warbeast Bond (channel spells, keeps warlock safe on the back lines); FEAT - Double Fury; Other - Guidance (Eyeless Sight and Magic Weapons to any one model a turn), Reivers CRA,Reform, and Mini-Feat (Snipe), Cyclops Raider (Arcane Precision, Snipe)

So while I am more comfortable with the list above, I believe the second list offers a better overall toolbox to deal with forced bad match-ups or me picking a bad match-up.

Thoughts???
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by DanS on March 26th 2014, 11:22 am

It may be a little easier to offer opinions if we knew what the Rasheth list looked like.  Is it the typical, Titans + Agonizers + Nialaters?

Both of those lists looks good to me.  I would probably take the more well rounded list, if you are looking to do well.  It seems like Makeda has a lot of moving pieces, good players will exploit that.
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by pg.Affliction on March 26th 2014, 1:29 pm

Sure thing:

T4 Bonus: Reduced Titan Cost, +2 SPD on a Minion Unit per Taskmaster (for this list its 2 units at +2), Extra Agonizers that start with 3 Fury, +2" on Deployment.

Dominar Rasheth (*5pts)
* Basilisk Drake (4pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
* Titan Gladiator (7pts)
* Titan Sentry (8pts)
Farrow Slaughterhousers (Leader and 5 Grunt) (6pts)
Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Paingiver Task Master (2pts)
Paingiver Task Master (2pts)


Only variant here is drop the Taskmasters to a min unit, drop the Gobbers and add another Agonizer. I have never really thought I needed a third, and there are some crazy first turn shenanigans you can do with the Gobbers and the +2 SPD, but the option is there.

Key points of this list: Dark Ritual - Arc spells through one warrior model a turn, Carnivore +2 MAT and RFP, Castigate - Models lose Arc Node in control area [he is Fury 8], Blood Mark - is -2 ARM can transfer damage to that model, wall of Titans and a very resilient army with FEAT, Taskmasters, and Agonizers. Board control with the early SPD buff, deployment bonus, Sentry, and Locker.

Yeah I am leaning towards the Hex2 list just for that reason. There is a lot happening and it needs to go smooth with the Mak2 list.
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by milothewise on March 27th 2014, 12:12 am

I like Hexeris in this role a lot, but this list looks an awful lot like your Rasheth list: multiple Titans + Dudes. Especially for opponents who can play around/cut apart the Titan/Bronzeback/Sentry combination, this might not be that tough to unpack.

I'd love to see Slingers or Incindiarii in there for more ways to use Black Spot, and more ways to kill infantry when you're opponent doesn't let you get Black Spot off. Slingers, especially, are a cheap-as-dirt way to increase attack volume, and that's what you're looking for in your anti-infantry list. The more heavies, the better, as far as this pDenny player is concerned...

Edited to add that I don't know what the hell you cut. How badly do you need Rush?
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by DanS on March 27th 2014, 3:51 pm

I actually like the similar beast load-out.  It lets you have a better idea of what list the opponent is going to choose against it, and then counter.  

Both lists attack in different ways, but require the same elements from your opponent to take on...this is a strength in my book.
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by pg.Affliction on March 28th 2014, 11:24 am

milothewise wrote:I like Hexeris in this role a lot, but this list looks an awful lot like your Rasheth list: multiple Titans + Dudes. 

Honestly this is 75% of Skorne lists. Its what they do best. Skorne infantry as a whole is mediocre, that is why Gatorman Posse is so valued and will be seen in a lot of lists.

milothewise wrote:I'd love to see Slingers or Incindiarii in there for more ways to use Black Spot, and more ways to kill infantry when you're opponent doesn't let you get Black Spot off. Slingers, especially, are a cheap-as-dirt way to increase attack volume, and that's what you're looking for in your anti-infantry list. The more heavies, the better, as far as this pDenny player is concerned...

Don't get me wrong I love me some Incindiarii and Slingers, but Skorne infantry as a whole is pretty easy to remove from the board. For the Hexeris2 list I am looking to threaten from bottom of turn 1 so the range of the Reivers is key to this particular build. With black spot the Slingers can be good, but the shorter range compounded with having to directly hit makes them a little less of a threat. Reivers have CRA and a potential threat of 20". I also havent put mine together yet, but maybe that is a route I can take in the future. There is also a Rasheth build floating around with Slingers. It may be something to look at also.

milothewise wrote:Edited to add that I don't know what the hell you cut. How badly do you need Rush?

Pretty important. It is really my only viable piece of Pathfinder in the list. That in combination with Guidance allows the titan herd to get places most people dont think they can get....like charging through a forest at a key piece...also walls suck Smile

DanS wrote:I actually like the similar beast load-out.  It lets you have a better idea of what list the opponent is going to choose against it, and then counter.  

Both lists attack in different ways, but require the same elements from your opponent to take on...this is a strength in my book.

Agreed, like I said above, Skorne lists are pretty much always beast heavy with a few exceptions like Mordikaar and Zaal. Its the little extras added to the herd that may win or lose you a game.

This faction has been a MAJOR change to the way I look at armies and builds. eDenny was my bitch and I loved her with all my black heart and rotting soul when I was playing Cryx. She can deal with just about anything at anytime and usually coming out on the better end of the deal. With Skorne I have to fight tooth and nail for every advantage I get and even those are tenuous at best.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Nick I will try to get those Slingers built in the next couple weeks and get them on the field. Will update once I have about 5-6 games in and let you know how they do.

**Man I need to change the quote background color, it is bad.
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by Slowerlitespeed on March 28th 2014, 6:59 pm

Just had a nice, big, long post on this topic get erased. Shit. I will work on it again

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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by Slowerlitespeed on March 29th 2014, 5:27 pm

Couple of questions, to start.  Does the Rasheth list not deal with infantry swarms?  Seems like it would be fine in that department.  Is the redundancy of the beast load out, between Rasheth and EHex, actually a good thing?  The two lists seem like they would share a lot of similarities, in my opinion.  I think the EHex list is very solid, but does not seem different enough, from an opponents point of view.  If I were choosing a caster to play against you, and you handed me those two lists, I think my decision would not be very difficult.  I say that because there is not enough variety in the way I would deal with those two lists, individually.  I understand they play differently on the table, but things that shut down one, seem like they will shut down the other.  I could be wrong here, but that is my initial thought.  

I also wanted to say that I would not be forced to take an infantry swarm against either of those lists, in order to deal with it.  That is what could make a more effective anti-infantry list, the fact that it can deal with infantry, and the opponent needs infantry to deal with it.  

Not sure that I am being helpful here, but I am trying

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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by pg.GrandPooBa on April 1st 2014, 8:16 pm

I'm actually liking your Raseth list because of the slaughterhousers. From my point of view Skorne has trouble with tough infantry especially kinds that can kill heavies in return.

With Skorne having very few ways around tough if any? I say actually try and fit another unit of them with Raseth or even maybe squeeze them into your Hexy list which I'm liking as your second list btw.

Maybe I'm focusing on tough to much but there is alot of it out there.

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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by pg.Affliction on April 4th 2014, 2:57 pm

OK so I have given it a few days to mull over last weekends games. Initially I was pretty sour about the performance of Hex2 and his army. After thinking about it for a few days it is not really Hexeris' fault. While he is a solid caster I didn't give him the army he needs to perform well for the role I wanted him to play.

In the two games I played with him (first against Skarre2 and the second Skarre1) my opponents either jammed me up (Brian in game 2) or had high ARM 'Death Ward' models (game 1) that I couldn't clear out with any certainty. It took so many resources to clear these models out that I didn't have anything significant to activate to fill in the hole made so my opponents just filled them in again. Hence I never made it anywhere and either got shut out on scenario (game 1) or my warlock got swarmed and killed (game 2).

I am thinking at this point in my reign as a Skorne Tyrant, Hexeris just doesn't fit my play style. I feel the list I need now has to not only allow me to clean out infantry, but also allow me to gain board positioning after the fact. So with this said my Makeda2 list is back in play and I just need to streamline my efforts.

The list below will allow me to not only kill high DEF and high ARM models consistently (FEAT, Swordsmen mini-feat, Incindiarii), it also allows me to gain board positioning through Road to War, FEAT (no free strikes or knockdown), Side Step (MK, Swordsmen), and Fate Walker (MK, Makeda).

I will try this list against Brian this weekend, hopefully he will field that Skarre1 list that face rolled me last Sunday so I can get a better gauge of how I need to advance in my thought process. The list below is the same one I have played 25 or so games with, and it has done well.  Its just slow to get rolling, but with patience it will wipe out a table of miniatures in the end. I just need to work on my game speed and decision making while using it. (same list as in the OP above)

Supreme Archdomina Makeda (*5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Cataphract Incindiarii (Leader and 5 Grunts) (9pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Praetorian Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Praetorian Swordsmen Officer & Standard (2pts)
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Gatorman Witch Doctor (3pts)
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor (2pts)
I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for all the feedback guys!! Sorry it took me so long to respond (see below), but I needed time to analyse last weekends games. I feel that in both match-ups (Skarre 2, 1) I would have fared significantly better with the list above than I did with the Hexeris list. I allowed both of them the center of the table along with leverage over my army, and the center of the board is usually off limits to most casters if Molik is still in play.
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Re: Match-up: Infantry Swarms

Post by pg.Affliction on April 4th 2014, 3:12 pm

Slowerlitespeed wrote:Couple of questions, to start.  Does the Rasheth list not deal with infantry swarms?  Seems like it would be fine in that department.

It does to an extent. I can drop a 'Breath of Corruption' or two a turn to slow down some single wound infantry. Also Carnivore + Trainwreck + Sentry can clear out some others. The units I seem to struggle with are the obvious ones; Raiders, Winter Guard, Kayazy, etc (Fast and high DEF), and the Rasheth list doesn't seem to have enough to get it done turn after turn. I will play test it though just so I know what I am getting if I do get forced into that situation. I may be surprised by the outcome.

Slowerlitespeed wrote:Is the redundancy of the beast load out, between Rasheth and EHex, actually a good thing?  The two lists seem like they would share a lot of similarities, in my opinion.  I think the EHex list is very solid, but does not seem different enough, from an opponents point of view.

While they are very similar, the Warlocks they champion allow them to do different things. While 'Trainwreck' is one thing, 'Trainwreck' with 'Black Spot' is a whole other monster. I find that Skorne armies are very similar, there is a typical beast load out and then flavor to fit the role you need them to perform. Unless you get into Zaal or Mordikaar (which I am planning here soon) list construction is pretty straight forward without a lot of variables.

Slowerlitespeed wrote:
I also wanted to say that I would not be forced to take an infantry swarm against either of those lists, in order to deal with it.  That is what could make a more effective anti-infantry list, the fact that it can deal with infantry, and the opponent needs infantry to deal with it.

Anything you put on the table Cryx-wise is going to be heavy infantry just by nature. There is a ASS-TON of Cryx in this meta so I do have to prepare to take out large amounts of bodies while not getting jammed out of scenarios or board positioning. This is somewhat difficult for Skorne as they arent inherently fast nor do I have any significant shooting to clear out models before my slower models advance to take that spot up.

Slowerlitespeed wrote:Not sure that I am being helpful here, but I am trying

You are, its good to get dialog going just to get the brain moving in the right direction. Posing questions or tactics that may seem obvious to you or others may be just what I need to see it from an opponents view point and allow me to work through it better.

pg.GrandPooBa wrote:I'm actually liking your Raseth list because of the slaughterhousers. From my point of view Skorne has trouble with tough infantry especially kinds that can kill heavies in return.

Yeah my Rasheth list is money, this last weekend I basically tabled two Hordes armies with it (one Circle, one Legion). There may have been 5 total models left on the two combined tables after all was said and done. As far as tough goes, I don't really see it as a huge deal. The army can take a alpha from a living army pretty well then grind through the 'tough' if need be. I probably wouldn't take it against a non-living army unless I was forced into it and the only significant 'tough' army is Trollblood. Trolls are a unique army though and depending on the Warlock they bring I may or may not bring Rasheth to the table.

pg.GrandPooBa wrote:
With Skorne having very few ways around tough if any? I say actually try and fit another unit of them with Raseth or even maybe squeeze them into your Hexy list which I'm liking as your second list btw.

Having played about 30 or so games with the list I haven't felt like I needed another unit of Slaughterhousers. Between them and the Gators I have never had an issue clearing things out or getting jammed up by tough models. The Posse are their own little deathstar of fun and happiness and the Slaughterhousers roll in and around the beast herd to gain the benefits of finisher.

Great feedback guys, keep it coming. I am able to finally play more this year so I will need to work through  ideas, armies, and tactics. After this next weekends tourney in Dayton I may start delving into either Zaal or Mordikaar just to shake it up a bit. Both are very different warlocks compared to the others I have tabled at this point.
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